To: 4brahmins@yahoogroups.com; iyer123@yahoogroups.com; atchuth@gmail.com
From: sivaratna@hotmail.com
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:35:33 +0530
[Iyer123] Sagotra marriages

Friends,
To vehemently oppose the far and few sagotra marriages taking place in our iyer community and  confuse the parents who would like to consider such options for their children is nothing but throwing a monkey wrench into the works. Our children are already tied with several outdated ideas and  restrictions which stunted their growth and narrowed their vision. Instead of being led through the ‘rajamaargam’ the royal pathway of the great values of our scintillating past by removing the impurities accumulated during the long journey of the Ganges of our culture, we justify them just because our elders followed them, under entirely different circumstances.
Things are changing fast. I was there to watch the launch of the latest space shuttle, Atlantis, on 14th of this month ,from the Kennedy space center. Six bold men were in that .They did not bother to verify whether it was Rahu Kalam or Gulika kalam when they entered, risking their life,  into that complicated machinery which will take them into space, millions of miles away from their home.Then why do we worry pacing the floor area between our kitchen and hall when our grandchild has to appear for a written and oral test for his LKG, at an inauspicious day,the time fixed by the son of a slug or snail ?
മാറ്റുവിന്‍ ചട്ടങ്ങളെ നിങ്ങള്‍ നിങ്ങല്ലെകിലോ
മാറ്റും അവകളീ  നിങ്ങളെത്താന്‍
Roared Mahakavi Kumaran Assan
If you don’t change those (outdated) rules, they will remove you( from the scene for ever)
That is happening. We are already removed from the center scene. Because of our ‘touch- me- not’ attitude, our children are waiting with begging bowls in front of the education institutions, in front of job opportunities..They are bowing their heads because of our obstinacy.
I am giving below my personal experience and I do not advocate that you follow this and acquire the anger of your ancestor and condemnation of the elders of this forum..
My only daughter is married to a sagotra boy from a cultured Telugu Vaishnava family and they are living  happily,and I live with them now, thanks to the blessings of Guruvayoorappan and my ancestors including that great ancestor ‘Kousika’ from whom my daughter and son in law are believed to have originated.(wonder whether my Kousika thatha bothered to verify the gotram of Menaka before he fell into her cool,
celestial arms ) There was no need for me to take even medical opinion because iyer-iyenagar mixing would have never happened in the past ruling out the possibility of problems due to Consanguinity.
Thirty years ago,I performed the wedding of my last sister with another iyengar boy and now there are three iyengar samabandies for me projecting prominent namams on religious functions. All those mix-up have produced well behaving,well educated decent offspring.
We are closing more doors and windows instead of opening them to the airy and flowery garden outside. Varnasrama dharma is dead and gone, why are we making so much noise on that? Are we now ruled by kshatriyas and served by soodras?. We are serving them. We are waiting with a cup of tea for them to sip at their leisure. With a file stuck in the arm pit, we run after them when they mount a platform to abuse our community. Then where is that ‘dharamam’ ? We are bargaining for our ‘coolie’ wages,by the side of a dead body; we are selling cooked food. We are giving our daughters to chicken -eating-chiranjeevies, after washing their feet with sanctified water ! And we call others as ‘pariahs’ and patties,dogs, because they eat meat!.
And before I take leave of you,I am happy to inform you that I have two normal healthy, sparkling, vibrant,naughty grand children from my daughter and what a relief “They are neither animal, bird or butterfly.  Or slug or snail”. Elders,
Sorry to waste your valuable time with my personal matters.
Meet you again if the moderator circulates this post and allows to continue  this ‘paraya’ in this forum. Otherwise we will meet in other forums till they also throw me out or through my website, where  I am publishing this article.
And to elders with ‘abhivadaye’   let us debate, argue forcefully But let us  not use abusive language about any one in this forum and  especially those from  other communities. If we do that we will not last long. Viji and Prakash will then have plenty of  time to spend with their families instead of struggling to screen our posts and scratch their heads.
Love and regards,
sperinkulam
This was in response to Sri.Narayanswamy Subrmanian’s post on 19th May,2010 and a few others on the subject whether one can marry with in the same gotram.‏
If the Jews, Christians and Muslims are correct, everyone living today in this world was born as a result of repeated and continuing incest.  Approved, ordained, and sanctified by God.  Unedr the doctrine:  “Go ye forth, and multiply!”

Eve came from Adam’s rib.  Their children inter-mated, i.e. brothers mated with sisters.  And so on ad nauseam.  Same as any animal, bird or butterfly.  Or slug or snail.
Mrs Saroja Ramakrishnan, cheenu @ coimbatore, and others who want to kick over our shasthric practice of identifying ourselves as siblings belonging to the same gothram, are in good company with Adam and Eve and their descendants.
Mrs Saroja Ramakrishnan, cheenu @ coimbatore, and others who want to kick over our shasthric practice of identifying ourselves as siblings belonging to the same gothram, are in good company with Adam and Eve and their descendants.
Re Chgeenu’s query.  If a Brahmin family belonging to the Bhaaradwaaja gothram adopts a female puppy, gives it the name of Mahalakshmi, would it not become a human Brahmin virgin eligible to marry a non-Bhaaradwaaja Brahmin boy ?  Mutatis mutandis, same applies to adopted humans.
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
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CC: thatha_patty@yahoogroups.com; iyer123@yahoogroups.com; USBrahmins@yahoogroups.com; silveragers@yahoogroups.com
From: gvshwnth@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 23:51:57 -0700
EXTRACT
At the outset let me admit that my views are irrelevant and I don’t qualify to give an informed opinion on this tricky question. So I am going public with my views with great trepidation and hesitation.I humbly seek pardon in advance from those who may find my views distasteful. Simply ignore me please but do not flame me!
In brief:

Shasti Srinivasan’s views appeal to me. I would like to lend a sympathetic chord. He is doing truly yoeman’s service. All strength to his noble eblow!
n these modern days when geographical, and cultural borders are crumbling, when even race and religion are becoming irrelevant to some among our younger generation, caste has already become irrelevant to many among our younger folks, and marriages between Iyers/Iyengars/Maadhavaas/ Smarthas and also marriages to non brahmins are becoming common, getting deeper into Gothra,Nakshatram, etc.  while not undesirable per se, need not cause so much  friction among us elders, who are any way not in the race for marriage and not eligible too. Why should we sit in judgment over what rules future generations should follow regarding marriages? We have glossed over so many practices that are not exactly per our community’s norms and Shaastras as a necessary compromise with modern times. But in this matter of Gotra, we are raising hell !
fully support the views of those who point out the absurdity of allowing a marraige to the Athai’s son or Mama’s daughter but throw a fit on Sagothra marriage under the guise of genetic dangers. So what if the gothra of your Maama’s daughter or Athai’s son is different? Genetically are they not nearer? Yet marraiges between cousins is rampant among our community
.Purely from genetic considerations, if two generations are checked, three if possible or practical and there is no blood relation, I would recommend we simply go ahead and not worry too much about Gothra. A blood test (for blood group, aids etc) is more relevant but who considers that these days?
I would also like to consider the possibility that some one suggested that same Gothra merely means that thousands of years ago, a group of persons were disciples of a particular Rishi. They were not necessarily his progeny. So “Sagothra” does not necessarily mean a genetic connection. And neither does the fact that the Gothra’s are different preclude totally a genetic connection.
I am also appalled at some “stars” being considered “untouchables”
I am shocked to hear that Kettai is not a fancied star.
Thank God I did not know this in 1975.
My wife is a “Kettai” and is the star of my life!
We have had a happy marriage for 36 years so far.
I am also amused to hear that Aayilyam is dangerous!
To conclude:
I have no problem with a Sagotra marriage if no blood relationship is obvious. I will adopt this as my policy when my son (who is still too young) gets ready for marriage. However I wonder if I will ever get a chance to participate in the process of selection of a suitable bride for him. Like most modern youngsters, he may select on his own. I will be content if he informs me and seeks my blessings which will be readily given, irrespective of Gotra and Nakshatra.
At the same time, I respect the views of those who feel Gotra is an issue on which there can be no compromise. I will merely like to agree to disagree with them and opt out of a debate with them. I have no compulsive desire or need to convince them.  However, I am distressed at the rather strong views expressed by one of us who suggested that we  should boycott such marriages! I am sure even if we do, the happy couple will not miss us one bit! I take solace in the fact that merely boycotting has been suggested, not beheading as the Khap Panchayats wish to do.
Regards to all
GV
—————————————————————————————–Date: Thu, 20 May 2010
Subject: Re: [Iyer123] Can one do Sagothram Marriages?
From: sashti.s@gmail.com
To: sivaratna@hotmail.com; gvshwnth@yahoo.com; srinivasan.ms2000@gmail.com; thatha_patty@yahoogroups.com; iyer123@yahoogroups.com; USBrahmins@yahoogroups.com; silveragers@yahoogroups.com; BRAHMINASSOCIATION-owner@yahoogroups.co.in; madraslawyer@yahoo.co.in; gbsub@yahoo.com
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-Dear Friends,

I am touched  by the outpouring supporting/justifying and divergent views by Members of this esteemed Forum, Honorable GV, GSubramanian  and  Perumkulam — you are not my personal friend(s), that I know of or met over the years, but this great debate on the above subject has  brought us together.
I don’t consider we are friends just because you agree and vote for, or give your favorable opinions, but you do so freely, frankly and fearlessly, in our Brahmin Society, “mildly endorsing” Sagothram wedding celebrations, in the context of where and how we are and the society we live in and a set of very  changed circumstances, in this modern day and age that we  live in, many of us, far and wide away from  our distant Motherland, not knowing what to do with our children of  marriageable age who have gone out in several directions to make an eking in what they believe is  “a land of opportunity” — it could be U.S.A, Canada, U.K. Australia and/or Middle East, Western  European countries like France, Germany and Norway, where parents of  children of marraigeable are, with parents pleading helplessly to get their children married; whose cause, I am seeking to serve through this Forum; some of you like GV, G. Balasubramanian, and  Perumkulam putting your reputation at stake in voicing your valuable opinions in  such Public Forums where you have been held in  high  esteem by our Members  and others, like G.V.S Iyer (Purohit) or our Vaadhiyar who has somewhat of divergent (different) in his views, very vociferous to his fatih and beliefs that he has to practice every day, giving out his opinions as “an authority and scholar well versed in our shastras” as he ekes out his living, as a “Purohit”  with his dissenting views on this matter, which also I greatly admire, value and respect!

And our friend, Kim Ramachandran (a long time Native American Resident) who has voiced his “line item veto” like the U.S. Congress wanted to give our U.S. President but each party voted it down whether the other Party’s President was in power,  “for or “against” each line item comment by the Learned Purohit  (Vaadhiyaar),  GVS Iyer

My children, daughter and son are happily married and settled in life,  by God’s grace and blessings!  It is  not their cause that I am advocating or pleading for or championing to promote!  It is your cause, people’s cause, parents of boys and girls of marriageable age, living in  the U.S. Canada, U.K. Europe, Middle East, Australia and NZ, the world over!  And when I connect a boy and girl of marraiageable age, in a distant, remote and far away land, where I see a “ray hope” of marriage between the  two “jeevans” coming together and “tieing a knot”, and then a parent of the boy or gal comes and axes, “but we are Sagothram” or closes out the conversation with an abrupt remark “but that the Naksthram, Moolam, Ayilyam, Kettai and Pooradam, are not on the list oNaksthrams that our Astrologer gaveus as matching stars with that of their son or daughter”, or “we are Vadakalai Iyengars and they are Vadamas, Madhwas, Ashtasahasram, Brahacharnam“,  that is what puts a closure to my whole effort and I see my efforts at the prospect of  a  “matrimony” once and for all “dimming” for that boy and girl; it pains my heart, making  me feel that I, as a Father of that boy or girl,  “losing” the battle to get them married and see a happy culmination of a wedding celebration fade! In my Life Time!  In Your Life Time!

Parents, I appeal to you, don’t let us happen to your children!

Respectfully yours,

VSrinivasan
3614 Columbia Blvd
Garland, Texas 7503-2246
tel: 001-972-840-3495

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———- Forwarded message ———-
From: Mahadevan Venkitasubbiar <vm194211@yahoo.co.in>
Date: Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Iyer123] Sagotra Marriages
To: iyer123 <iyer123@yahoogroups.com>
For the past few days, one has been regularly reading in this forum, arguments and counter- arguments prohibiting Sagothra Marriages. Perhaps, this topic has assumed added significance because of almost a national debate on the subject, provoked by recent happenings in Haryana.
The protaganists of the “Prohibit Sagothra Marriages”, believe that those belonging to the same Gothras come within the  prohibited relationship and therefore such marriges would not be in the interest of the offspring.They also argue that this is in conformity with Hindu Marriages Act.
The same group of people vehemently argue in favour of uncles marrying nieces or cousins (children of brothers and sisters) marrying each other, citing traditions.
Let us now examine the relevant provisions of  Hindu Marriage Act. Section 2 of this Act, defines the prohibited relationships. Among others,the following are prohibited relationships:
brothers and sisters
Uncle and niece
aunts and nephews
children of brothers and sisters
Thus, under the Hindu Marriages Act, an uncle marrying his niece or children of brothers and sisters marrying each other, come within the prohibited degree. Yet, we have no qualms in encouraging these marriages (particularly in South India), because the Hindu Marriage Act has an enabling provision.
Section 5 (iv) says that the marrying persons are not within the degree of prohibited relationship, unless the custom or usage governing each of them permits of a marriage between the two.
Thus, the rule prohibits marrying within the prohibited relationship. But the exception is the custom or usage. We take umbrage under the exception and defy the rule without any qualm. This is how we support the marriage of uncles with nieces or children of brothers and sisters marrying each other.
Medically, in this forum, doctors have averred that consanguinous marriages lead to defective genes in children.
Those who take support from a legal loophole and defying medical opinion, argue in favour of discouraging Sagothra marriage on the ground that it comes wihin the prohibited relationship. There are no scientic evidence to show that unrelated families belonging to same Gothra come within the consanguinous relations. Thus, they are afraid of an unknown consaguinous relationship from same Gothras, but do not hesitate to defy known consanguinous relationships and take shelter under an exception of the Hindu Marriages Act, completely oblivious of the Rule.
I do not advocate Sagothra marriages. I only advocate that if in all respects there is agreement, Sagothra should not stand in the way, except when the consanguinous relationships are known.
On any day, marrying the member from an unrelated family, but belonging to the same Gothra is better than marrying one’s niece or cousin.
V.Mahadevan

———- Forwarded message ———-From: Mahadevan Venkitasubbiar <vm194211@yahoo.co.in>Date: Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:56 PMSubject: Re: [Iyer123] Sagotra MarriagesTo: iyer123 <iyer123@yahoogroups.com>

For the past few days, one has been regularly reading in this forum, arguments and counter- arguments prohibiting Sagothra Marriages. Perhaps, this topic has assumed added significance because of almost a national debate on the subject, provoked by recent happenings in Haryana.   The protaganists of the “Prohibit Sagothra Marriages”, believe that those belonging to the same Gothras come within the  prohibited relationship and therefore such marriges would not be in the interest of the offspring.They also argue that this is in conformity with Hindu Marriages Act. The same group of people vehemently argue in favour of uncles marrying nieces or cousins (children of brothers and sisters) marrying each other, citing traditions. Let us now examine the relevant provisions of  Hindu Marriage Act. Section 2 of this Act, defines the prohibited relationships. Among others,the following are prohibited relationships:     brothers and sisters    Uncle and niece    aunts and nephews    children of brothers and sisters
Thus, under the Hindu Marriages Act, an uncle marrying his niece or children of brothers and sisters marrying each other, come within the prohibited degree. Yet, we have no qualms in encouraging these marriages (particularly in South India), because the Hindu Marriage Act has an enabling provision.

Section 5 (iv) says that the marrying persons are not within the degree of prohibited relationship, unless the custom or usage governing each of them permits of a marriage between the two.
Thus, the rule prohibits marrying within the prohibited relationship. But the exception is the custom or usage. We take umbrage under the exception and defy the rule without any qualm. This is how we support the marriage of uncles with nieces or children of brothers and sisters marrying each other.  Medically, in this forum, doctors have averred that consanguinous marriages lead to defective genes in children. Those who take support from a legal loophole and defying medical opinion, argue in favour of discouraging Sagothra marriage on the ground that it comes wihin the prohibited relationship. There are no scientic evidence to show that unrelated families belonging to same Gothra come within the consanguinous relations. Thus, they are afraid of an unknown consaguinous relationship from same Gothras, but do not hesitate to defy known consanguinous relationships and take shelter under an exception of the Hindu Marriages Act, completely oblivious of the Rule. I do not advocate Sagothra marriages. I only advocate that if in all respects there is agreement, Sagothra should not stand in the way, except when the consanguinous relationships are known.On any day, marrying the member from an unrelated family, but belonging to the same Gothra is better than marrying one’s niece or cousin.  V.Mahadevan


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